ICICI Prudential Life Insurance Complaints & Reviews

ICICI PRUDENTIAL betrayed with me to sold a policy Vide no. 16386935 . I had just listen his story so many times regarding my policy he told me that my policy is related to agent commission around 30,000 which is transfer to
agent account . Because of I wanted to saving my money i have to go for next which he has suggested to me . I also meet that person in your local icici prudential office who collected the necessary document from .
I m the single person who earned for my father ,mother , brother and my wife etc. and they are only depended on me. I m the source of the income . Plz try to understand my problem . Sir give the decision in favor of me .
If you are not able to return my money , so kindly convert this to other one time investment policy . Because i m not able to pay this big amount kindly consider my both situation. My family also waiting for your reply because you know the value of money. Thanking you .

Sir,
I am holding 3 ICICI Prudentntial Life Insurence policies One of my policy 15096468 and its premium is Rs.100,000/- is annually and its due dates is before 14th February. I have requested ICICIC customer care-[protected] on 7th Feb 2013 to send any one of the executives to collect the premium. I have reminded again on 11th and 13th February 2013. I was extremely felt very sorry about the attitude of the ICICI staff with my request and no persons have contacted me nor collected the premium. When ever I contacted the Customer care the only one word was made mandatory with ICICI customer care is WE ARE EXTREMELY SORRY.Nothing went fine I have lost the trust with the ICICI that has built in years.Finally decided to close all the business relations with ICICI.
I am herewith disconnecting my premium payments to the policy as noted below
1. 15096468
2. 02968276
3. 02968277

Under policy NO: 12426490 in ICICI Prudential and life insurance,Jammu Rs. 90,000/- has been deposited by me but I got only Rs.60,000/- only i.e. only after three years. One agent Sh. Kewal Krishan has deceived me by telling me that your money will grow. But they have deceived me. Hence it is requested to got the payment of Rs. 30,000/- plus interest nd paid to me. Thanking you.

Yours faithfully,


(D>K.Mattoo)

A/C NO: 12426490

Phone NO: [protected]

Dear Sir,

My name is Sumedh Dange. My policy No.[protected]ICICI Pru Life Time Premier)
My Annual Premium was amount Rs.18000/-
Due to certain unavoidable circumstances I have decided to discontinue my Policy , so last month (11th Jan)I have visited ICICI Pru Office located at Chinchwad (Pune) and I have inform Executive that I want to discontinue my Policy because of some financial problem but ICICI Pru Executive said that I will get refund after 4 Yrs(i.e after maturity of Policy) and he also suggested me to convert Premium to monthly ECS (i.e Annual Premium to monthly ECS (i.e Rs.1500 PM ), and i was agreed with him. I have completed the procedure to convert Annual Premium to Monthly ESC.
I have provided all required documents with undersigned form and One canceled cheque.

Now the incident is, on 4th Feb I have received one message on my cell phone said my IDBI Acc. debited Rs.15000 Det:ECS-TP ICICI Pru.,
I don`t know why its deduct from my account even my monthly premium amount is Re.1500/-

ICICI has never contacted me. How can they withdraw such huge amount without giving any notice. ECS permission given to them was only for 1500 monthly which is the premium amount.
This is really frustrating and fraud from ICICI Pru.

Please help me to get all my amount refund...

Many Thanks in advance

Sumedh Dange
Pune
+91-[protected]

From:
Prahladbhai Dungarbhai Dabgar
15 Rang Vihar Society,
P T College Road, Paldi
Near Modern Flats,
Ahmedabad 380007
To: 14th February 2013
www.consumer.complaints.in


Dear Sir:
Sub:ICICI Prudential Life Insurance Co.

This is to inform you that I have tried to contact in Insurance complaints inAhmedabad
I have find out your web sites where I can put my complaints. I came to know
In Consumer.Complaints.in, I have decided to contact you by e mail following facts to you for information of such banks how they are cheating with their customers. While Banks representatives contacting in very beginning they said and given promises as per our requirements. After getting the cheques from us their rules and norms are different. Because they are asking us to sign on the forms on various places with so many pages.We are not aware of any rules. They are black mailing emotionally. I am giving the details for your kind knowledge.

I have consulted Insurance Advisor Shri Jayesh Panchal – [protected]) and Shri Jignesh
Rathod Agency Manager [protected] of ICICI Prudential Life Insurance Co.Ltd.,7th floor, Abhijeet III, Law Garden Road,Navrangpura, Ahmedabad 380006 Fax No.[protected]th December 2009 with the influence of my daughter’s mother-in-laws for getting the work. Above both representative shows that you will get good return of your money after 3 years with good interest in the Policy. During that time I have got some money of my retirement. I thought they come to my house with the influence of Harshida my daughter. They will not speak wrong to me.

I have invested Rs.3,00,000=00 in the ICICI Prudential Life Insurance Co.Ltd. for 3 years
with the Policy No.13148638 on 29 December 2009. After getting the policy, it was not for SINGLE PREMIUM policy, but it was annual premium policy. I got shocked and contacted Shri Jignesh Rathod, he informed me “this is regular they inform to customer, Nothing to worry. You will get your money back after 3 years with interest” I thought OK if his is the case. Same way I have invested an amount of Rs.1,25,000=00 through Sharekhan representative Shri Sandip Shah. In this case also same reply Shri Sandeep Shah has given “this is regular they inform to customer,
nothing to worry. You will get your money back after 3 years with interest”

After the completion of 1 year they started demanding premium for annually payment.
I have informed them at their banks that I am retired person I am unable to pay the premium. Every month they phones and sent messages on mobile. In writing I have complaint to ICICI Prudential Life Insurance Co.Ltd.,in Gujarati matter and also I had
given complaint in their prescribed forms for all 3 policy Nos. Details given below:

Sum assured for Rs.3,00,000=00 Policy No.13148638 Inward No.39597146
Sum assured for Rs.1,00,000=00 Policy No.13169781 Inward No.39597423
Sum assured for Rs. 25,000=00 Policy No.13317838 Inward No.39596837

As per the acknowledgement “we will revert to you in 7 (Seven) days. If you are not satisfied with the resolution provided to you, please refer to the Grievance Redressal
Mechanism given overleaf” Till today I have not received any communications from ICICI Bank.I have tried to contact both the representatives who first met me, now they are disappeared and I don’t know about their availabilitiy in the Bank?
When after completion I have checked with ICICI Bank my money is less then I have deposited. I thought I will get the interest of 3 years. In my above 3 policies less amount instead it should be increased. Without contacting me ICICI bank has sent me foreclosure cheques to my address on 6th January 2013 and 2nd cheque on 11th January 2013. Details given below:

Cheque No.056329 dt.04/01/2013 Rs.15,564=27 ICICI Bank, Mumbai
Cheque No.054569 dt.31/12/2013 Rs.47,917=31 ICICI Bank, Mumbai

I am sending you the folder of complaint I have given to ICICI Bank for your kind perusal. Sir this is my harden money I worked whole of my life. You can contact me on my mobile No.[protected].

Thanking you,

Yours sincerely,


P D Dabgar

I am sending attached folders by separate e mail for yoour information.

I have a LifeStage Assure policy of ICICI Prudential since 19 March 2009. My policy number is 11508590. I am paying Half yearly Rs. 10000/- means yearly Rs. 20000/-. So till now I have paid Rs. 80000/-. I had taken this policy from executive of India Infoline. That time executive told me you can surrender your policy anytime after 3 yrs without any surrender charges.

But now when I went to office of ICICI prudential, Prabhadevi the executive of that office told me you will get only Rs. 61028/-. He told me ICICI Pro invest your first year premium in market (i.e 20000/-). I was shocked because this was never convey to me. He said you will get full and final amount only after maturity and not now.

Means If I am surrender this policy then I have loss of Rs. 20000/-. But I have very bad urgency in my family and I am one and only earning person in my family. So I request them atleast give me my paid amount only without any interest (i.e. 80000/-). :( But they are not ready to refund it.

Please help me. I have a bad urgency in my family. Please help me to get back my refund atleast my paid amount (Rs. 80000/-).

Regards,
Sonali Sawant

Hi,

I have taken a Policy for my two kids thinking about saving some amount for their future. I am a priveleged customer for ICICI bank and when I went to ICICI bank branch for depositing some cash in my account, the counter staff and marketing guy canvassed about investing in ICICI prudential for the welfare of my kids. As shown in one of the TV program advertisement, they said about the positive things on policy and they didnt tell that i have to pay the premium continuously for three years otherwise i will get back only the 30% of fund value. I was aware of this only when i raised request for taking back my money after two years.

I have taken policy (ICICI Pru Smartkid maxima) no. 13586109 for premium Rs 15,000 per year in my name (P Senthilkumar) and my younger son Abhinesh.
I have taken another one same policy[protected] for premium Rs 15,000 per year in my wife's name S priya and my elder son Guruprasad. I paid first premium in 1 Jun 2010.

When i checked the fund value after two years, it was less than what i have invested and I thought of taking the amount back. I raised a request in ICICI prudential to refund my policy amount. The fund value for 13586109 is Rs. 26842 in Jan 2013 but the ICICI pru staff told me that they will refund only 30% of it which is not fair at all when my investment is showing as 26843 in their website. fund value for 13586104 is Rs 27,243 on Jan 22, 2013. attached the screenshots from ICICI prudential website for the same

For God's sake, please dont invest in ICICI prudential and give the money which u saved by cutting down so much o[censored]r expenses to a cheating company like this. It is better to donate it to some orphanage which will give atleast 30% o[censored]r income tax savings.

If the fund value is showing as 26,842, I should get the same ...how come the company can come out with this kind of condition to eat out my money. It is like culprits stealing the money belonging to yours without your knowledge.

with Hurted Heart
Senthil

Sir/Madam,

An exemplary case of mis-selling & duping through serving falsehood by the executives of ICICI Prudential is brought to your kind notice for taking necessary action.

The facts of the case in brief are that I and my wife (senior citizens) were holding two different policies with ICICI Prudential. We were told by ICICI Prudential executives that both these policies were not performing well and if we go in for another policy worth Rs. 50,000/-, we would get a bonus and enhanced sum value on the earlier existing policies in 2013. I never intended to buy any fresh policy but was induced, rather compelled to go in for the above said new policy of Rs. 50,000/- premium per year. Blank forms were given to us and we were made to sign the blank forms without anything filled in. No terms and conditions and other details of he policy were told or explained to us.

We were told that an RGF would be opened for us. Believing the employees of the company in good faith, I reluctantly paid a cheque of Rs. 50,000/- and was told that the policy document would follow. We received the policy document after some days and immediately on receipt of these papers, the same were taken away from us on the pretext of calculating bonus etc. on the old two policies. After keeping the documents with them for more than a month, the same was returned to us without any correction/RGF. We got suspicious and enquired from a local branch and to our shock, we came to know that no such scheme existed and we were duped by the falsehood of the employees.

I am in a state of deep shock and repentance on account of this fraudulent sale of the policy by the company. I never expected this type of behavior and attitude from the employees of a reputed company such as ICICI Prudential. I lodged a complaint at the company’s branch office on 09th November 2012 and subsequently but no positive reply has been received from them.

I am in a state of mental agony and trauma for this mis-sale of the above policy and request you to kindly use your good office for the cancellation of this policy. The entire sale of the policy is based on deception from the very beginning, therefore is illegal, unenforceable and void ab initio.

I look forward to your reply and hope of a positive action from your office in cancelling the above mentioned policy mis-sold to me.

Thanking You,
Hari Chand Saluja
(Proposer of Policy No.[protected]
Phone: +91 [protected],[protected]

Sir, after my first complaint via your forum the company employee commited to me for shifting my funds from ordinary funds to govt funds and they will send post with details of removing agent contribution from my policy as well fund shifting but still they not taken any action against the commitment and sending messges to me your policy will lapse in nest 5 days . now sir what i can do this is really from this company i need to withdraw my money imidiate coz i will not trust this type of companies.
sir please help me....


thanks


s.shinde
[protected]

dear sir
i have not receved premium policy recept till date ,my policy num is 03461215.

We having complaint against ICICI Prudential Company ltd. We owned 2 policy with this company. on the name of
Name Policy No.
1) Krunal Kanakbhai Raichura 10703714
2) Khyati Krunalbhai Raichura 10690107

Above 2 policy cannot be surrender unless and until you personally visit company office for the signature. as such we are not able to to visit office anyhow.

Meanwhile, at the time of policy issue we didn't told about the policy that we have to visit company office at the time of surrender. They fraud with us and cheat us to get policies.

Now they are asking us to visit at office and then only policy can surrender.

Please help in this matter.

Dear Sir/Madam,
I am Ranjay Kumar and my Emp. no. is 599538.I have resined on 31st May 2012 an i have appied PF withdrawal form on 26th November 2012 and i have recieved a mail from HR dept "Your form recieved on 29th November 2012 and your PF will be credit within 21 days". But today is 22nd December 2012 and my PF not recieved till Date.I have many times sended mail and call on HR helpdesk but nobody give the right reply.Every time they told me , your form process.
Kindly help me.

Thanks & Regds
Ranjay Kumar
Emp. no-599538
Mob-[protected]

Dear Sir,

We have an ICICI Policy No. 10703714 as name Krunal K Raichura and Policy No. 10690107 as name Khyati K Raichura we have both policy since Dec-2008 and now we have to surrender both policy but they refuse to accept at time of policy they don't tell us that policy holder have to come personally at there branch, so we request to please help us in this matter

Thanking You,

Krunal Raichura
[protected]

I visited ICICI Bank for getting a FD for Tax benefits on 17/12/2012. The executive there are very eager to sell ICICI Prudential Policies to anyone that comes for Tax saving needs and they coax you and give you false information about the policies to make you buy one. The same happened to me too. I applied for the policy there and when I checked the policy documents online later, I found several clause that differed from what was promised to me. Though it was my mistake to sign anything before I read complete document, I however realized this and on next day i.e. 18/12/2012, I checked status of my application on their tracker. It was still under Proposal status. I called up customer care to get my application cancelled and refund me the money. Instead, customer care executive told me to write an email to make my request for cancellation. I immediately wrote up an email and got response within one hour that my request has been received. I was at peace that now I could get my money back. But the next day on 19/12/2012, I again checked if the status showed cancelled or not, and was surprised to find that the status has changed to "in force" in spite of my request for cancellation, I wrote an email to customer care again stating the matter and I received reply that policy has been generated and when I receive the documents, I have 15 days to run to nearest branch to get it cancelled after deduction of certain charges. What the hell!! what was the result of my telling them to cancel the policy when it was still not processed?? Totally freaked up now and getting harassed to get my own money back. This is very unprofessional attitude of ICICI Prudential and has left me very unsatisfied. I am pasting the email communication below for more insight into the matter.
[protected][protected][protected][protected][protected][protected][protected][pr...⇄
From: Javed Alam
Date: 19 December 2012 13:01:16 GMT+05:30
To: "ICICI Prudential Life Insurance Co. Ltd" <[protected]@iciciprulife.com>, [protected]@iciciprulife.com
Subject: Re: Cancellation of application for policy OL00456332 Call ID # 53139270
Hello

This is just ridiculus! I had requested you not to generate my policy and you did just the opposite. If you would check your records, my request to cancel the policy came to you when the application was still in proposal phase. But you took no action and let the policy to come in effect. Now you want me to wait for the document and then run around your offices to get it cancelled.

Definitely this is going to leave me as a very unsatisfied customer. When it is time for you to get money, you act super speedy and when customer is asking for something then you just relax and let customer run around to get his own money back.

Nice work you guys are doing!

Javed.

On 19-Dec-2012, at 11:42, "ICICI Prudential Life Insurance Co. Ltd" <[protected]@iciciprulife.com> wrote:
Dear Mr. Javed Alam,

We appreciate your time and patience.

We refer to your email dated 18th December, 2012.
This is with reference to your request pertaining to policy cancellation and refund for application number OL00456332.

We wish to inform you that the application number OL00456332 has been processed and a ICICI Pru Wealth Builder 17266786 has been issued on 18th December, 2012.

The policy documents will be dispatched to your registered mailing address mentioned below by 23rd December, 2012:

FLAT ...,BLOCK....,
...................,,
KOLKATA
West Bengal- 700132

Further , The policy holder is provided with the flexibility to review the policy terms and conditions, under the Free Look period (15 days from the date the policy document has been received by the policy holder).

*Refer the policy document for details on applicable freelook period

In order to cancel your policy, kindly submit the below mentioned documents at the nearest ICICI Prudential branch :

1. Duly filled Payout form,
2. A copy of self attested photo id.
3. Original policy certificate
4. A duly signed cancelled cheque of the account where you want the freelook amount to be credit.

Please note that the documents to be submitted by the Owner of the policy or any of his blood relative. In case of documents submitted by blood relative, the same needs to be authorized by the owner on a letter or the format available with the company.

To locate the nearest ICICI Prudential branch, kindly visit our website http://www.iciciprulife.com/ and click on branch locator.

You may locate the nearest branch by clicking on the branch locator link under "I want to get in touch" on our ICICI Prudential website home page: http://203.27.235.9/public/default.htm

Following is the list of documents that can be collected as valid KYC documents:

Passport
PAN Card
Voter''s Identity Card
Driving License
Ration card with photo
Once the said documents are received by us, your request will be processed within 6 days along with the payout TAT as per the mode chosen by you.

Disbursal TAT’s are as below:
? Direct Credit: 1 working day
? NEFT [less then 2 lakh]: 2 working days
? NEFT [greater then equal to 2 lakh]: 1 working days
? ECS: Minimum 7 working days
? Cheque: 7 days from date of dispatch
? Credit Card: 7 working days
? Web Reversal [EFT]: 10 working days

If the policy is cancelled within the freelook period, following deductions are made before refund of the first premium deposit:

1. Stamp duty charges
2. Unit fluctuations: Since Net Asset Value (NAV) is subject to fluctuation depending upon market performance, units will be repurchased by us at the unit value determined on the Valuation Date. For the purpose of NA V calculation, applicable day would be receipt of FL request

The fluctuation in the NAV will be borne by the policy which will be adjusted from the first premium refund that will be paid.

Please contact us for further clarifications, if any.

***Customer Alert*** : E-Statements at a Single Click...!! Click on below link :
https://www.iciciprulife.com/customer/ppcdetailsprelogin.jsp
With this you can now get your Premium Paid Certificate (to file your tax returns), Premium Receipt and Premium Notice at the click of a button in 3 Simple steps...!!

Yours Sincerely,

Dimple A.
Manager - Customer Service
ICICI Prudential Life Insurance Co. Ltd.
[protected][protected][protected][protected][protected][protected][protected][pr...⇄
ICICI Pru ICICI Pru Wealth Builder,UIN (Unique Identification Number as per IRDA):, Policy Number 17266786.
© 2012, ICICI Prudential Life Insurance Co. Ltd. Registered Address: - ICICI Prulife Tower, 1089 Appasaheb Marathe Marg, Prabhadevi, Mumbai – 400025. Reg No: 105. Insurance is the subject matter of the solicitation.




[protected]Original Message[protected]
Hello

I noticed in application tracker that you have issued me the policy inspite of my request to cancel the application.

This kind of action is highly unprofessional and I did not expect this from reputable institution like ICICI Prudential.

I demand to know whether you are going to do any action in this regard or not?

Thanks
Javed Alam



On 18-Dec-2012, at 15:07, Javed Alam wrote:

>
> Thank you Dimple
>
> Please make sure that you do not issue the policy in the meantime.
>
> Thanks
> Javed Alam
>
> On 18-Dec-2012, at 13:32, "ICICI Prudential Life Insurance Co. Ltd" wrote:
>
>> Dear Mr. Javed Alam,
>>
>> We refer to your email dated 18th December, 2012.
>>
>> This is with reference to your request pertaining to policy cancellation and refund for application number OL00456332.
>>
>> Your concern pertaining to the policy cancellation and refund has been noted by us. We are looking into the matter and shall revert to you by 25th December, 2012.
>>
>> Please contact us for further clarifications, if any.
>>
>>
>> ***Customer Alert*** : E-Statements at a Single Click...!! Click on below link :
>> https://www.iciciprulife.com/customer/ppcdetailsprelogin.jsp
>> With this you can now get your Premium Paid Certificate (to file your tax returns), Premium Receipt and Premium Notice at the click of a button in 3 Simple steps...!!
>>
>> Yours Sincerely,
>>
>> Dimple A.
>> Manager - Customer Service
>> ICICI Prudential Life Insurance Co. Ltd.
>>[protected][protected][protected][protected][protected][protected][prote...⇄
>> ICICI Pru ,UIN (Unique Identification Number as per IRDA):, Policy Number 00000000.
>>
>>
>>
>>[protected]Original Message[protected]
>> Hello
>>
>> I had applied for an ICICI prudential policy Wealth Builder with application number OL00456332 on 17/12/2012. I would like you to cancel the application and refund my money as I have changed my mind about the policy. Kindly acknowledge this email and update me on the cancellation status.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Javed Alam
>>

I hold a policy Assure Life , policy No.12340284 which I opted in 11/08/2009 with a Rs.20000 premium every year. The adviser/agent Anil told me that the first premium Rs.20000 will be kept safe to give good returns by the company so to give good return on withdrawal and locking period is 3 years after which you want you can continue or withdraw and this fund will be managed by fund manager and will never go in loss. I never received any mail regarding fund performance form ICICI prudential any time in 3 years.After seeing worst performance after 3 years I decided to withdraw my money, till now I have paid Rs60000, when I called the agent he already left the company when discussed with other agent about withdrawal I was very shocked to hear that I will get only Rs 36000 something that is the fund value. when I said that I have paid Rs.60000 till now and I dispute.he told me that someone will call you.

After 2-3 days a lady called from Mumbai that your first premium Rs.20000 is locked and will not be refunded as its in Guaranteed Maturity addition (GMA) which is term of 15 years.so with remaining Rs.40000 which comes out is around Rs.36000 something as of the day fund value. I said that why was it not informed and not mentioned in the broucher that the GMA will not be refund if policy withdrawn. she had no answers. she kept on saying on registration of policy you have first 30 day to withdraw. I said when will I get my blocked Rs.20000( for so called GMA) she said when the policy will complete after 15 years. I asked her that you fund performance is worst, you say that you have fund manager how will invest money on safe place but I never saw any fund switching and noticed loss in the fund value how and why should I continue for 15 years. she said the you will not get the GMA (Rs.20000).

This is total fraudulent activity by ICICI life insurance company. I want to dispute this case and would ask help from consumer court/forums to help me in getting my hard earned money back.

Sir, Before 3 year i have taken policy from this company they commit me you just pay amount for 3 years after 3 years your money will double and after 3 years you can withdraw your amount. pls support me i am in big trouble. now they are saying this is not our responsibility. if you could not continue to pay your money should be lossed.

plss sir do something . otherwise i will make suicide.

Thanks.

S.Shinde

[protected]

salary is hold by your boss. icici prudential is the most bust place to work. every higher manager is very good in abused his team. they all are feel proud to humiliate direct sales manager. its a company who is never follow any rules and regulation of employee welfare working hours 8am to 10 pm. they officially call meeting at 8 am . labour depto f delhi goverment is never take any action against this company

Lot of time i have raise the complaint against ICICI bank employee for wrong information provide to me during time of selling policy.

But till now we are not getting any revert call from ICICI prudential life insureance.

Kindly suggest to me in that case what type of action i can take against to ICICI Prudential Life Insurance Co. Ltd.

Thanks

Regards
Sushant Kumar Singh
+[protected]
Policy No. 10911146

Respected Sir,

My self Aribalakrishnan holding a life insurance policy in ICICI Prudential from 08/06/2009 . I am paying my dues on time using online banking. During last payment i used HDFC bank credit card. And my next due data is this month. Today i got a message from ICICI that the amount will credit from your credit card. Its quite shock for me since i never register this featured with them. I have called them and enquired about that they are saying that it will be automatically enable for the customer who are paying their premium through credit card. I have asked them is there any check box are anything like that .. they told that it will done automatically.

I asked them how to disable this feature .. they told that i need to walk to nearest ICICI Prudential bank to submit a hard form..

Its very hard for me to walk to the bank for the things which i wont make any mistake . Its happening for many consumer.

Could you please assist me on this .. So that it wont affect any one in future

Contact info : [protected]
mail id : [protected]@rediffmail.com

Hello Team,

I purchased one ICICI Pru LifeLink Wealth SP Policy on 07/03/2011.

Policy No.: 15179959

The Lock Period is 5 Years....

Now due to some personal reasons, I want to surrender this Policy and the Customer Care guys and Branch people are telling me that before 5 years i can't even surrender this policy.

Well what kind of rule is this..I need this money on an urgent basis. I even asked them to deduct some percentage of the final value.

I lost the hope. Now i request you guys to please help me in getting my money back. I need it on an urgent basis..There is no other benifit on this policy...I can't even take loan on this policy..Pleaseeeeee consider my case.. Thanks in advance.... :(